I have my ideas On how to work towards a foundation program to improve a racing homer line to go forward. What do you do have done to improve your breeding and flying results. Such as obtaining the best birds you can . From as few people with the same family line. Checking flying records of the purchased breeders. Ped, info. on past flyers. setting up training and racing charts of there young. Keeping only the best clock and consistant birds to go to the old bird team. Not over pushing the yearlings past a 300 mile. Then at second old bird season. Rate the birds on performance. Looking back on the different pairs As now your third season On the differnt hens and cocks. Kow have they gone on to produce a persentage of quality flyers. remove the less consistant breeders. From the breeding program. perhaps replaceing them with some of the solid old bird flyers from a more solid set of breeder family line. This goes to 4th year. From there program remains as above. Adding removing. As you set down your best breeding pairs developing differnt family lines with the loft. With your key birds. By year 6 you are on your way to a solid program. Strong old bird team. And improved and reduced young bird team. As You see numbers being raised can be reduced as quality has improved. Less losses And birds are being raised that perform well in your area. Be strict on removel on non performers. Let them go to people that just want pigeons. NOT future flyers in the the club or such As they may improve some. But most often will have a lot of work to go. Then you are acredit to the sport. By when you get rid of a bird to another flyer. They are getting a bird You would be will to race and keep. And perhaps put in your breeding loft. BUT thats just my idea. Tell us your concepts and a little on your program
re lee
In most cases the hen will be smaller then cocks. But once and a while you will have a hen that is same size as a cock and have alot going for it. Size of birds differ some what with family lines. a good med balanced bird is a workable bird. Not to small not to big. A cock that appears in looks more like a hen I would not use it at all in any breeding program. Wont mean it can not fly. But it will not have the outward tools to improve on.
Start at the top !
Hello Robert,
Good topic. At the risk of sounding like a commercial. A few years ago, I got back into racing after quite a few years. I spent several months attempting to locate a "family" of birds. I knew enough that if I acquired birds, even good ones, in a random fashion, that it could take 7-10 years to build a family around them.
So, I sought out breeding stock, that I would not have to invest ten years just to form a family. Here is my story.
http://hometown.aol.com/smithfamilyloft/myhomepage/profile.html
If I can simply maintain the quality that is already there, I could be good for a long time. If someone wants to get serious about racing, and balks at the price tag of aquiring world class breeders, then I offer this thought. If you have pigeons for the next 20 years, how much will you have invested in feed, racing fees, travel etc. ? Now, take the investment needed to start with World Class pigeons, and divide that by 20 years.
The alternative, is to start with a random collection, work very hard over the next 20 years at trying to improve them, and maybe, maybe, you can be at the same level as my starting point.
By acquiring a Champion FAMILY developed over two generations and thirty years, I in my humble opinion
Have saved decades of work, and have greatly increased my odds of success.
Hello Robert,
Good topic. At the risk of sounding like a commercial. A few years ago, I got back into racing after quite a few years. I spent several months attempting to locate a "family" of birds. I knew enough that if I acquired birds, even good ones, in a random fashion, that it could take 7-10 years to build a family around them.
So, I sought out breeding stock, that I would not have to invest ten years just to form a family. Here is my story.
http://hometown.aol.com/smithfamilyloft/myhomepage/profile.html
If I can simply maintain the quality that is already there, I could be good for a long time. If someone wants to get serious about racing, and balks at the price tag of aquiring world class breeders, then I offer this thought. If you have pigeons for the next 20 years, how much will you have invested in feed, racing fees, travel etc. ? Now, take the investment needed to start with World Class pigeons, and divide that by 20 years.
The alternative, is to start with a random collection, work very hard over the next 20 years at trying to improve them, and maybe, maybe, you can be at the same level as my starting point.
By acquiring a Champion FAMILY developed over two generations and thirty years, I in my humble opinion
Have saved decades of work, and have greatly increased my odds of success.Thats in line on obtaining the best you can get. THEN you still have to set down a breeding program to keep going forward. Though the birds were from a tight family line. You the person are now the breeder of the purchased birds. And that can just as easly take them backwards as it can go forwards.. Records race results and an eye for putting the birds together keeps up the building and results. BUT yes you put it in a short line. GO to the top If you can to get good birds. then results come much faster. And this holds true in any pigeon breed out there. Quality exceeds quanity. One good pair is better then ten just ok pair. I think sometimes thats where people get in a hurry to. As thinking numbers gives chances. BUT The longer a person raises pigeons they in time learn that if they are going to be competive they have to make some changes. Steps are local national and international. local races and shows not as good of birds needed. national one loft races districtshows and meets much better birds are needed. Intrnational. basicly If you do well nationaly. You can compete else where or your bird help pigeon breeders from other countries. Its what a person sets a goal for. And ITs goo to aim to the top if you can. So your right on track there warren.
You are right on there Robert,
If the selections for breeding going forward, are not chosen wisely, then BIG steps backward, can occur very quickly. I believe there may be fewer then a dozen MASTERS in the world, who can select simply on what they can see.
For the rest of us poor mortals, we had better count on the basket to discern who has the "right stuff". Even then, I believe it is an art to the pairing.
The "old school" taught to simply pair the best to the best. I believe, that is not the total complete picture by any stretch of the imagination. If it were that simple, then all one would have to do, would be to mortgage the house, and purchase a pair of outstanding champion racers, and future success, fame and fortune would be guaranteed.
I am convinced, that for the most part, 1) start with the best you can get your hands on 2) select vigerously on race and breeding performance 3) constantly look for birds which are superior to your own for crossing. 4) keep only the very, very best.
When I hear of fanciers who have 50 pairs of breeders, I know they are working on the numbers game. My opinion is they could eliminate all but their best 5 pairs, and their racing results would improve. But, they will never do it, and besides, it gives me someone to beat !
If the selections for breeding going forward, are not chosen wisely, then BIG steps backward, can occur very quickly. I believe there may be fewer then a dozen MASTERS in the world, who can select simply on what they can see.
For the rest of us poor mortals,
we had better count on the basket to discern who has the "right stuff". Even then, I believe it is an art to the pairing. The "old school" taught to simply pair the best to the best. I believe, that is not the total complete picture by any stretch of the imagination. If it were that simple, then all one would have to do, would be to mortgage the house, and purchase a pair of outstanding champion racers, and future success, fame and fortune would be guaranteed.
I am convinced, that for the most part, 1) start with the best you can get your hands on 2) select vigerously on race and breeding performance 3) constantly look for birds which are superior to your own for crossing. 4) keep only the very, very best.
When I hear of fanciers who have 50 pairs of breeders, I know they are working on the numbers game. My opinion is they could eliminate all but their best 5 pairs, and their racing results would improve. But, they will never do it, and besides, it gives me someone to beat !
I agree there on the numbers. I know several people that breed from way to many pairs. They seem to think you have to raise alot to make up for the one getting lost in training. In which with good birds you loose less. But they will not listen. Old school also taught that a bird that did not have all the tools but had much of what you needed should be used in the breeding program. And you know that many times even in racers that the brother sister to a winning bird will make the better breeder. Because even though it sibling scored higher on wins. it scored higher over all on perfomance. consistantcy. records. race results Are the charts to build a winning family. Even show birds often a bird that would not win a one bird show. Has the make up to breed top show birds so it is used for stock. If a person understands there breed and points carried on a bird. And a flyer studies his birds and there capibily to reproduce winners. AND that it takes good hens to keep a line going. NOT just top cocks. AND the master breeders were slow to build there birds but never strayed. Where many times a person changes birds in a 3, 4 year time. Then agin and agin. Familys that win were built not bought . Then from there they go on to help many people get a great start. Most top racing lines were over 20 30 years in the making. tracing back thru ped, as now forty fifty years from ther top birds. then some just keep short ped info because they know each bird thru the years. The old line birds have a history as to how they were bred and how others bred from that line so on. taking on the name of the flyer. sich as Smiths ludlos. That would be your family line of ludlos. Now you cross them do good the become just Smiths. To which a proven line that you built has now been sought after and can perform well for others. Years go by in raiseing breeding and the art racing building that line. The old saying there is no short cut to the top. Just a lot of hard work and enjoyment. Thats why top breeders breed winners and others try to buy winners. One stays on a level field. the other rushes but can not get to the top. JUst like you have done. You went out pruchased the best you could get. It has helped you greatly. And as you go forward from there Those birds become YOUR family of ludlos And how they perform becomes how you bred them to do so. Your the artist who brings ther painting to life from this point. Ganus. Ludlo were the supplers of the paint. A good paint. you create the master piece. As you will breed them different then Ludlo or ganus would And who knows perhaps better. The future is the fun in the art of breeding.
I to listened well thru the years. And still listen today. Alot of good poigeon breeders out there. painting is after building the house. You get the best you can and from there you paint the loft with select breeding . So you as I both have listened thru the years to help give us the tools of learning. The school is the same. And perhaps some one may here our words one day. The young people will carry forward in the sport from the words of the past who tried.
Thanks guys for all the good info. I am new to racing pigeons so it has been helpful. I got a couple more question I have been reading some stuff on eye sign. I know some people dont bother with it at all and some people really believe in it. I was wondering what do you guys think about it in relation to breeding and pairing up your birds? Do you pay much attention to it? I read an article on eye sign that said to never pair up two birds that both have pearl or yellow eyes that you should always pair up a yellow and a pearl is this true? I am wondering if this eye sign stuff is really that important so I have another question I am not sure if there is a answer for this one but here it is. What is there more of? Pigeons that if you would look at its eye sign and going by eye sign only you would say that this bird has a bad eye and it isn't a good racer or breeder but it actually is a great racer and or breeder. Or pigeons that if you look only at its eye sign and according to its eye it should be a great racer or breeder but it actually really sucks. Maybe that was a little confusing what i'm trying to say is what is there more of? A pigeon with a bad eye sign that is actually a really good bird or a pigeon with a great eye sign that is actually not a good bird for racing and or breeding. Thanks
Eye Sign
Dear FT33,
Perhaps someday, someone will come along, who can convince me of the importance of this so called "eye sign" business. I know there are fanciers out there who value eye sign, wing sign, vent signs, twister signs, etc. Sort of reminds me of the song from the 60's, sign, sign, everywhere a sign !
Do I "like" a beautiful eye ? Yes. Do I really buy into the ideal, that you can peer into a pigeons eye, and tell if it is a racer, a breeder, etc. No way.
No more then you can tell anything about any other athlete, human or mammal, by looking into their eyes. Feel free to read everything that has ever been written about eye sign. I will still put my confidence in the results. Racing performance, and breeding performance.
Dear FT33,
Perhaps someday, someone will come along, who can convince me of the importance of this so called "eye sign" business. I know there are fanciers out there who value eye sign, wing sign, vent signs, twister signs, etc. Sort of reminds me of the song from the 60's, sign, sign, everywhere a sign !
Do I "like" a beautiful eye ? Yes. Do I really buy into the ideal, that you can peer into a pigeons eye, and tell if it is a racer, a breeder, etc. No way.
No more then you can tell anything about any other athlete, human or mammal, by looking into their eyes. Feel free to read everything that has ever been written about eye sign. I will still put my confidence in the results. Racing performance, and breeding performance.
Hey Warren,
I know nothing about the eye sign and which of the birds would be good or bad racers, but I must say they sure have very very beautiful eyes!
Linda
I know nothing about the eye sign and which of the birds would be good or bad racers, but I must say they sure have very very beautiful eyes!
Linda
Going by eye sighn You would say the number 2 bird had the better eye, then 3 then 1. But like you warren. Te eye sighn is iffy. But I do like a good alert eye on homers. And a bird that stands out in the loft is one wqith a strong alert eye. But in the air I have seen birds with broken eye sighn do good. So which of the 3 birds do better in the sky. warren.
Sounds good Warren. The best eye sighn Is seeing the bird going thru the trap. But It does take a little learning on the different grades of eyes. I have not stayed caught up since they proved with foged contacts that the bird can still get home. Used to be grades one thru ten. And ten had a good wide full circle around the pupil. Just as a five but wider. I still say a good racer looks good. over all balance of the bird makes it stand out.
Eye Sign Challenge
OK Robert,
Here they are:
Super Champion- World Class RACER -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/superchampion2.htm
Olymipia Queen- Racer and Breeder -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/olympiaqueen2.htm
Late Rode 430- World Class Breeder -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/laterode2.htm
I cheated a little bit, there were no duds in the group. Although one gained their reputation from racing, one a combination racer & breeder, and a breeder.
OK Robert,
Here they are:
Super Champion- World Class RACER -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/superchampion2.htm
Olymipia Queen- Racer and Breeder -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/olympiaqueen2.htm
Late Rode 430- World Class Breeder -http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/laterode2.htm
I cheated a little bit, there were no duds in the group. Although one gained their reputation from racing, one a combination racer & breeder, and a breeder.
The number 2 eye is the strongest breeding eye. The number 1 eye is also a strong breeding/flying eye. The number 3 eye would be my last choice.
Eyesign is very controversial. Families of pigeons tend to show certain eye characteristics which may indicate value as far as breeding is concerned. Personally, I feel that there are too many factors at work to predict which eye will win a race(weather, health, training etc.).
I wouldn't base a family exclusively on eyesign but it can be a useful tool, where breeding racing pigeons is concerned.
I believe in the long run, the basket is the best choice.
Eyesign is very controversial. Families of pigeons tend to show certain eye characteristics which may indicate value as far as breeding is concerned. Personally, I feel that there are too many factors at work to predict which eye will win a race(weather, health, training etc.).
I wouldn't base a family exclusively on eyesign but it can be a useful tool, where breeding racing pigeons is concerned.
I believe in the long run, the basket is the best choice.
Right on Grizzled !
You and I like the #2 eye the best.
However, the #1 eye produced four world class champion racers, and over 25 1st place winners.
The #3 eye, which you favored the least, has the superior race record, hands down. 1st Olympic Champion Bird of the Entire World - All Distances 2001, 1st Olympic Champion - All Holland - South Africa 2001, 1st National Ace Pigeon - 1 Day Long Distance - Vredesduif 1999
I am still waiting to be convinced by anyone, that this "eye sign" theory, should have any meaning to the average racing fancier at all.
Show me the race results, and the breeding results. And then I, like anyone else, can tell you if a bird is any good at racing or breeding. The promise that an "eye sign" can foretell the racing or breeding performance of a bird, before the event, is a pipe dream, pure and simply.
If you could gaze into an eye, and tell me this bird is the best racer, in a group of birds, imagine the millions you would have earned already in the various pools. Just another old wives tale, that people can't let go of.
And like you Grizzled, I think the #2 eye, as listed on my orginal post, is still the most beautiful.
PS. #1 & #2 are brother & sister.
You and I like the #2 eye the best.
However, the #1 eye produced four world class champion racers, and over 25 1st place winners.
The #3 eye, which you favored the least, has the superior race record, hands down. 1st Olympic Champion Bird of the Entire World - All Distances 2001, 1st Olympic Champion - All Holland - South Africa 2001, 1st National Ace Pigeon - 1 Day Long Distance - Vredesduif 1999
I am still waiting to be convinced by anyone, that this "eye sign" theory, should have any meaning to the average racing fancier at all.
Show me the race results, and the breeding results. And then I, like anyone else, can tell you if a bird is any good at racing or breeding. The promise that an "eye sign" can foretell the racing or breeding performance of a bird, before the event, is a pipe dream, pure and simply.
If you could gaze into an eye, and tell me this bird is the best racer, in a group of birds, imagine the millions you would have earned already in the various pools. Just another old wives tale, that people can't let go of.
And like you Grizzled, I think the #2 eye, as listed on my orginal post, is still the most beautiful.
PS. #1 & #2 are brother & sister.
Well it just goes to show you that what we like isn't always what is best.
All of us like a nice looking, well balanced bird, with a nice eye and good handling body but as we all know, all types of pigeons big, small, beautiful and not so beautiful win races and breed winners.
Are #1&2 of any particular strain or family line?
All of us like a nice looking, well balanced bird, with a nice eye and good handling body but as we all know, all types of pigeons big, small, beautiful and not so beautiful win races and breed winners.
Are #1&2 of any particular strain or family line?
I am glad you asked !
I bet everyone is glad you asked !!
http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/laterode2.htm
http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/olympiaqueen2.htm
and saving the BEST for last !!
http://hometown.aol.com/smithfamilyloft/myhomepage/profile.html
Well now Grizzled,Grizzled said:
I bet everyone is glad you asked !!
http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/laterode2.htm
http://www.ganusfamilyloft.com/olympiaqueen2.htm
and saving the BEST for last !!
http://hometown.aol.com/smithfamilyloft/myhomepage/profile.html
So the two reds #1 & #2 are from the same family. Looking at their eyes I wouldn't have thought so, but seeing the full photo I can see the family resemblance. They are real beauties. Both are outstanding breeders obviously, but were either of these pigeons flown or were they bred for stock only? The #2 eye appears to be digitally enhanced to better display the eyesign attributes(just my guess). Can you post some more eye pics? Include a real dud this time just for fun.
Hello Grizz,
The #2, had some respectable racing experience, all in Holland. So keep that in mind, there was some tough competition.
5th St. Quentin 864 b
52nd Orleans 4,327 b
83rd Argenton 3,528 b
63rd Creil 2,735 b
16th Minderhout 9,300 b
She has produced 9 1st place winners. So, when you picked the #2 listed here, she had a race record, and a breeding record. The other two were known for one or the other, so you made a good choice.
I will have to look around for a "Dud" eye picture, I don't own any.
I own direct children of #1 and #2, as well as grand children, and great grand children. After 60+ training tosses up to 100 miles, and 10 YB races, of which the 336 mile race is mandatory, by the time the season is over, all that is left, are pretty good.
The #2, had some respectable racing experience, all in Holland. So keep that in mind, there was some tough competition.
5th St. Quentin 864 b
52nd Orleans 4,327 b
83rd Argenton 3,528 b
63rd Creil 2,735 b
16th Minderhout 9,300 b
She has produced 9 1st place winners. So, when you picked the #2 listed here, she had a race record, and a breeding record. The other two were known for one or the other, so you made a good choice.
I will have to look around for a "Dud" eye picture, I don't own any.
I own direct children of #1 and #2, as well as grand children, and great grand children. After 60+ training tosses up to 100 miles, and 10 YB races, of which the 336 mile race is mandatory, by the time the season is over, all that is left, are pretty good.
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
